Transcribed by: Hawa Kante

Zoe: Hey everyone, welcome to a brand new season of Lemon-Aid. I'm Zoe and I'm here with all of my besties.

Jackson: I’m Jackson. I'm the head of a graphic design department and I am joining today as a parent bestie of Zoey, which is a wonderful label to bestow upon myself.

London: Hey, everyone, I'm London. I'm excited for the episode we had today. We're gonna see who knows what it's about to really expose us but that's okay.

Bethany: Hey, guys, it's Bethany really excited to talk about some queer Ed today really excited to learn some shit.

Jackson: Period!

Bethany: Period!

Zoe:Okay, so let's start off with the worst could be the best. Definitely the funniest part of the episode. Let's start with some trivia.

Jackson: Okay, so I have found a Jeopardy style, queer history situation online. So I'm just going to run it like a normal trivia like, I'm just going to go through questions one by one. And it's going to hopefully start off a little easier and then get a little harder moving forward.

Zoe:Can we have the category so I can say like, clear history for 500.

Jackson:The categories are, there's four. And they are historical figures, movies and TV, Stonewall riots and pop culture now pop culture, I'm anticipating something stupid, so just be aware of that. But those are the categories.

London: I'm scared. I'm gonna get pop culture wrong. I don't even know how it could. But I'm scared.

Jackson :So Zoe, go first you pick.

Zoe:I want pop culture for 200. And I'm choosing this because I hope that it's easy enough where I can get this but I don't fucking know. So there's okay. 

Jackson: I think you will pop culture 200 Is this this is the answer. Or this is whatever you need to say like what is or whatever. Okay, it's, um, this prominent rock singer never publicly came out, but was widely considered to be bisexual and died from AIDS related complications in 1991. 

Zoe: Who's Freddie Mercury? Oh my God, I am so smart. You guess

London: Why am I sitting here thinking and I'm like, I know who it is. But I don't know his name right now. See, this is the thing. This is what's wrong. I'm like…

Zoe: Freddie Mercury's head is in my mind. And I'm like, I don't know.

Bethany: I'm bisexual and it's important for bisexuals to remember. I would have loved that for me.

Jackson: Who's next in London. You have to pick a category.

London: Oh my goodness. Okay, I'll do um, oh, pop culture for 100.

Jackson: Okay, ready? It says this Badlands singer has been out as bisexual for many years and made news this year by coming out as non binary during their pregnancy.

London: Who is housy?

Jackson: Yeah!

London:Oh, my goodness. I didn't know that. Congratulations to them.

Jackson: I know go Halsey.

Zoe: If you wouldn't have said Badlands. I probably would have just skipped it over. 

London: But I had a stance against Halsey in middle school. So she has some very, like, interesting history with the black community that I'm like girly okay.

Bethany: isn't she black?

London:

Jackson:I think they umh. What pronouns?

Bethany: I think she's a she/ they.

London: Okay

Jackson: I can  clarify.

London: Okay. It wasn't the past two I feel like now I wouldn't care as much but.

Jackson: She/They is correct.

Bethany: Damned I get a point for that one too.

London: But yeah, I think they do have some black and then though.

Jackson: She's looking at that point, Zoey. 

Bethany: Yeah.

Jackson: Okay, Bethany big category, historical figures and movies and TV, Stonewall riots or pop culture?

Bethany: You know, I'm gonna shake it up. I'm gonna do movies and TV

Jackson: For what? 100 through 500 

Bethany:Oh, 100 

Jackson: This movie, though considered a breakthrough for gay representation, was not well received by many LGBT audiences because of its many cliches. I can give you a hint if you want.

Bethany: Which one? Oh my god, there's a f@#$! 100

London: Yeah, I was like that's so broad. That is such a broad question.

Jackson: I know there's a lot I know it's okay. It was much more recent like the past couple of years and there was like a straight actor playing a gay character type be.

London:What is love Simon? I forgot to buzz, oh sorry.

Bethany: Well I buzz but I wasn't gonna guess I love Simon's so I might be wrong. I was gonna guess call me by your name with Armie Hammer that's a straight guy.

Jackson: That is not the right answer. But that is also a point to make.

London:What is love Simon? 

Jackson: Yeah, so just last time.

London: I remember that that was so it was an Army hammer. I feel like I didn't get as much as Timothy. Like that was something different but I feel like I remember love Simon specifically and they were like he straight he can't play it. queer character. And it's like, Don't y'all know that most of your favorite queer characters are played by streetman?

Jackson: Yeah, almost all of them. 

Bethany: Also it kind of says something to have to force people to come out to play character. Yeah. Like because there's people that play queer characters while they're quote unquote straight and then come out later out on down the line. Like, you shouldn't have to, like, pull out like your fucking queer resume to play characters. You know.

Jackson: There's a whole conversation to have there, I think for sure.

London: Yeah. I think it's just yeah, there's nuances to the conversation, I would say too so. 

Jackson: Zoe, you're next.

Zoe: May have Stonewall for 100.

Jackson: Yes the Stonewall Riots of this month and year are widely regarded as the catalyst for the modern Gay Rights Movement.

London: Oh, June 1969.

Jackson: Yeah!

London: June 1969. Let me get it right. Because it's Jeopardy but yes.

Bethany:  London You're winning. You're all worried that puts you in the lead.

London: I wasn't reading up on my history before this. Y'all don't play with me.

Jackson: She came prepared.

London: No, I'm just letting you know. I looked at it a little bit. I was like, let me freshen up before we had this episode. 

Jackson: London. You're next. 

London: Oh, okay. Um, I'll do pop culture for 300.

Jackson: Starring in Orange is the New Black. This trans actress is one of the first to gain notoriety for playing a trans character. 

Bethany: Who's Laverne Cox?

Jackson: Yeah!

London:I could not remember her name.

Jackson: She also went to my college fun fact.

London: Yes, we love an alumni.

Jackson: Yes, we love alumni. It's just funny because like they never use her name to flex I'd like to point out these random pitches that were like on Glee. And all these you don't talk about Laverne Cox. Are you kidding me? Anyway, I'm Bethany, your next.

Bethany: I'm Ana shaken up. I'm gonna do historical figures.

Jackson: This Hispanic gender queer activist played a pivotal role in the emerging gay rights movement and advocated strongly for homeless queer youth. I'm going to amend that question. This person, I believe is more considered to be a trans woman. I've heard her referred to as a trans woman. I'm not sure about the gender queer thing. Yeah.

Zoe:  Sylvia Rivera. 

Jackson: Yeah!

Zoe: Okay. silverware. Vieira and Marsha P Johnson should not be separated because they were besties who did everything together versus serum reason. Salvia has been leftover left out of fucking everything. But yeah, they had the house together and like, they together were the people who did a lot of shit.

Jackson: They started Star, which was an activist organization for trans for trans people in New York.

Zoe: and also had like a little apartment that people could come stay with. 

Jackson:Beautiful, beautiful woman!

London: Icons literally.

Jackson: I know Zoe your next.

Zoe: Um, may have historical figures for 300 go bigger. Go home.

Jackson: This first lady was rumored to have several relationships with women, perhaps even disappearing girl, Amelia Earhart.

Bethany: Was it Eleanor Roosevelt?

Jackson: Yes!

London; Oh, my goodness. Yes. I'm so bad with names. That's what's gonna get me with this. One did your next.

London: We have movies and TV, right?

Jackson: Yeah.

London: What have we done?

Jackson: We've only done 100. 

London:Okay I'll do 200.

Jackson: Oh this Hollywood rulebook from the 1930s prevented the depiction of quote unquote, sexual perversion, which prevented the depiction of explicitly gay characters.

Zoe:Oh, f$!@ me. Oh, god dammit. I know that. Oh my god.

Jackson: Times out. It's called a Hays Code..

Zoe: God dammit. F@#! Me.

Bethany: Okay, well, that's one point for no one.

London: I don't think I've ever heard of that. 

Jackson: The Hays Code. Also the motion picture production code. It's because the guy that wrote it his last name was Hays.

London: Okay. Now I know what you're talking about. Got you. Got you. 

Jackson: Bethany you are the next queen. 

Bethany: Okay, um, let's do pop culture. Whenever one's next down the line I don't know.

Jackson: 400

Bethany: Okay. 

Jackson: This black lesbian poet wrote often about feminism and fatherhood. 

London: We can cut you off.

Bethany: I mean not technically.

London: That's not fair. Zoe you freaking cut him off.

Jackson: I mean, that question really gave it away because she was assaulted. I mean, what did she say she was? She was that black lesbian feminist warrior poet.

London:I just don't know who else it would be like that's Audrey. She's our queen, Miss Laurie.

Bethany: Okay, maybe from this point onward we should let Jackson finish his questions.

Zoe: Yes 

Jackson: Zoe, you're next. 

Zoe: May do historical figures for 200.

Jackson: This ancient Greek poet inspired this popular term for women loving women. 

Bethany: Sappho? 

Jackson: Yes! Oh my gosh, that's crazy that nobody knew that. London is next. 

London:Did we finish historical figures? 

Jackson: No, we have 400 and 500 

London: Okay 400

Jackson:  This man was the first openly gay elected official in California. I was famously assassinated at the age of 48. Oh, come!

Zoe: Because two of us live in California does not mean.

London: Harvey Milk?

Jackson: Yes. Y'all know ​​Harvey Milk?

London: Yeah, Jax, you know what, Jackson's right to yell at us about that.

Jackson: Harvey Milk San Francisco baby. And I will say on the topic of movies and film, there's a beautiful movie called milk with Sean Penn. It's about Harvey Milk if anyone's looking for content. Um, who's next, Bethany?

Bethany:Are any of our categories empty?

Jackson:There's one left and historical figures and pop culture.

Bethany: Let's do another one for pop culture.

Jackson: Okay, so the last one from our culture. These artists created paintings and public art to advocate for action on the AIDS crisis gay rights and safe sex. 

Zoe: Keith Haring 

Jackson: Love of my life By the way.

Zoe: My favorite Keith Haring works of art are ones where he like remade Mickey Mouse just fucking ever.

Jackson: Yes, I've seen him. 

London:Oh, I love that for him.

Zoe: It's my favorite thing ever. It's like super erotic Disney. You can never find it because Disney is also Disney and like, lost their f!@#$ minds. But it's very good.

Jackson: So you're next. So it's historical figures, movies , TV and Stonewall riots.

Zoe: Maybe stone Awara  Stonewall  200.

Jackson: It says because quote unquote, gay behavior was illegal and public. This group would often own gay bars as most business owners will not assume the risks and this contributed to the constant raids. I know you know this. 

Zoe: I know I do too. 

Jackson: Okay the mafia. 

Zoe: What god dammit I knew it!

Jackson: Stonewall was a mafia run bar. And that was kind of how or a reason why it was constantly raided and many bars are owned by the mafia.

Bethany: I didn't know that. 

London: Yeah, Jeopardy makes me sad, because I'll hear the answer. And I'm like, Yes, I knew that would have never conjured it up in my own mind. But yep.

Jackson:Yeah London you are next.

Jackson: Yes. For 500. Okay. This non binary philosopher has been on the forefront of the gay rights movement for decades and has contributed greatly to feminism and queer theory. Okay, I will say this person I did not know before I took academic Gender Studies courses in college. So this might be hard.

London: I feel like that's also a very broad question.

Bethany: Yeah know, I was like, that's kind of vague. Like, hopefully there's more than one.

Jackson: It's somebody who directly, like, contributes to queer theory as a field like publishing or, you know, writings and thoughts that are related directly to academia. Zoe, when I say this name, you're gonna be like, Oh, my gosh.

Zoe: No, I know. And that's what's killing me. Is that, like, I'm running through my list of people that I know of that, like, do that shit. And I can't think of a goddamn one. You wouldn't know that my whole fucking degree is. 

London: That's 1000s of dollars.

Zoe: Yeah, literally, what?

Jackson: Judith Butler? Who I did not who I did not know that I'm binary until I read this today.

Zoe: But most of Judith's due to work was at a time where like, non binary wasn't a f%$#@ term yet. 

Jackson: Exactly

Bethany:Actually, you still find old people that say bisexual for non binary.

Jackson: Yeah, um, I think Bethany's next we've got movies and TV and Stonewall Riots as all that's let's do movies and TV for 300, 400 and 500

Bethany:  300. 

Jackson:Taylor Mason on this TV Show is widely considered to be the first non binary character on TV. I have never heard of this show before.

London: I do not know who that is. 

Jackson: You've heard the show billions. 

Bethany: No

Jackson:  Me either. I don't know. Yeah, Zoe, you're next.

Zoe: Made you Stonewall for let's just do 500 Why the f@#! Not.

Jackson: Okay, though less famous than the Stonewall Riots this 1966 San Francisco queer riot queer  it's not as important.

Zoe: The cafeteria or Compton cafeteria.

Jackson: London you got you got four left you got 400 and 500 for movies or 300 400 for Stonewall

London: 300 Stonewall.

Jackson: Okay. This black trans woman was widely noted for her activism for LGBTQ rights and some believe she threw the first break at the Stonewall riots. 

Bethany: That was Marcia, right? 

Jackson: Yes it was!

London: It is Marsha 

Bethany: Marsha P. Johnson.

Jackson: Just for the record. Marsha didn't want to show the first brick. She did not get to the riots until they already started because she was at Judy Garland's wake up town. It was a very emotional day. just clarify was clearing that up. Who's next? I don't even know. Bethany.

Bethany: Oh, um, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.What are my options.

Jackson: Movies and TV or the Stonewall Riots.

Bethany:Is the only one left in Stonewall. Clear out stonewalls let's get.

Jackson:  Okay. This group was active before the Stonewall riot publishing a gay newspaper and campaigning for queer rights, but was able to be more productive after the riot. This is something you might not know about. I don't know ,Zoe does.

Zoe: Oh God,I know I do. 

London:Um I will say the wrong thing.

Jackson:The Manichean Society.

London: I would have said the wrong thing.

Jackson: The magistrate society likes just briefly like the thing with them. I mean, it was meant only, it was not very intersectional it was very assimilationist. And it was very and I mean, that's why it failed. I mean, it failed after three, four years, you know, so that's why it didn't really succeed because it wasn't radical enough, basically but Zoe is your next.

Zoe: May have what are the what's left in, in movies and TV? 

Jackson: Just 400 and 500.

Zoe: May do movies and TV for 400 please.

Jackson: Huh? Oh, this one's easy. This 2005 movie starring Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal was one of the first major studio films to prominently feature gay characters. Yeah. Bethany

Bethany: Brokeback Mountain. 

Jackson: Hell yeah.

London: Fun fact. I've never seen it and just as, like, over the past, like a couple of weeks, I started watching it and I still haven't finished it. And I don't know if I'm gonna have you guys seen it. Is it going?

Bethany : I've heard it's really sad.

Jackson: Oh my god. It's so sad. It's horribly sad. I don't like sad.

London:I've never wanted to watch it before. But now I'm like, It's okay. And then I was like, oh, Heath and Jake. Like they're both cuties. But I don't know how I feel about it.

Jackson:Well, it's also like, it's gay cowboys. Like you gotta love it, you know? Honestly, 

Bethany: And you know, for when it came out, like super progressive. Okay,, we gotta remember that. 

London:Oh, my goodness. I was like, I was like, how much are they actually going to touch? I am so proud of them and proud of their progression. 

Bethany: And like I remember I remember when Heath Ledger like when Heath Ledger was first announced to be Joker. I remember everybody being like, Oh, you mean the Brokeback Mountain guy? Like really? Like so, it did affect how people viewed them. 

Jackson: Oh, yeah. He and Jake both had to deal with the possibility of like, never working again, because it was such a scary thing.

Bethany: And I mean, obviously they both did fine. Well, I mean, not fine. Sorry, Heath, but, you know, career wise.

Jackson: And I mean, I think I think it was a beautiful film. And I think it's a gorgeous story. I remember being a kid and like finding it on some illegal 123 movies type website and watching it in my bedroom being like, Oh my god.

London: Okay I think if it said I'll just have to prepare for that.

Jackson: I'm London you have the last year. The last one that you have is movies and TV for 500 readings. Okay, this show aired the first same sex kiss on network television. What? 

Bethany:Laffy

Jackson:  No

Bethany:  Damn, maybe it was the first lesbian kiss on television.

Jackson: I've never heard of this one. 

London:I don't wouldn't even know who did it first.

Bethany: It was called La law. Oh, I don't know what that is. Yeah, I'm not sure I don't watch cop shows anyway, so I wouldn't

Jackson: Me either,who won because that was the end.

Bethany: I mean, I don't want to sound biased because I was the one keeping the tally, but I did

London: She did a good job Bethany. Yeah!

Zoe: Bethany definitely f@#! one. Yep. 

Bethany: Thank you. I'm second place because I am between Zoe and no one.

London: We can just say I try.

Bethany: Yeah, and then London's just, you know, honorable mention chilling .

Jackson: But to the point of the episode, I think that what's interesting about that trivia is that one every, a lot of times when we didn't get it, or when somebody didn't know it, they recognized it after the answer was said. And to. It's interesting to me how I think a lot of what some people think might seem like basic American history, and we don't learn about that in school at all, which is, which is very sad. So I'm glad we had the opportunity to, to play that little trivia moment.

London:I enjoyed it a lot. Thank you. I actually feel very inspired from Zoe and Jackson to take a queer history class, because you guys know, peak it for peak information. And I'm like, wow, what didn't ever know that I should take a class. 

Jackson: I really recommend it. And I mean, I technically have yet to still take a queer history class, I've, I've done all my own research, I'm just doing Gender and Sexuality Studies. So I've kind of been able to learn the history that comes with that. I've been doing a lot of reading to which I have some books to recommend later on. But anything you can consume, that is, given queer history is so I think, vital to understanding just a lot of the world that we live in, and especially how a lot of queer history directly relates to our major world events like World War Two, World War One, things like that. And the intersection of sexuality and race. And American history is also very interesting. 

London: I'll probably mention this again later, but like to connect to what you said about like, all that being, like important, but back to the pony said, we at least kind of recognize, like, the history after you said the answer. It's like, but we also need to mention that, like, we're all queer people, and we all, you know, engage in this type of content, you know, frequently, so it would be very different if we were all people who would just learn just from like, the American history system.

Jackson: Yeah. And, you know, I don't want not to get on a tangent. But I think part of me also is like, as much as I want queer history to be like a public school knowledge. Public school doesn't do well with history they already have, you know, so it's like, yes, there's something to be said. And like seeking out your own history as tragic as I think that it is. I feel like it allows you to kind of find the real truth and, and understand the intricate details of it in a way that's not censored. That's not like, straight sis washed or whitewashed, or any of that stuff, because you're finding it from like, maybe firsthand accounts, or just more reliable sources than a textbook from Texas.

Bethany:Like, I agree with, like the emotion that you've come along with, like, yeah, like I told you, like, it'll be sis whitewash. But I still think at that point, it would be better than nothing. No, I agree. I work in a public school. And most of those kids aren't going to turn around and go do research. I think that even just being like, shown even like, the most watered down version of the history would be better than that. I don't know, the absolute nothing we get now. Because I mean, we have really watered down like black history months, which are like super whitewash. I agree. But it's like, Okay, how much would people know if we didn't have black history month at all?

Jackson: Yeah, I agree. I think that there should be space to make a lot of histories that we're not taught in school, we kind of have had to search for our own histories. And like, I know, like black Americans go through the same thing too. And like women in America, like there's so much of our histories that are missing from textbooks, if they're taught at all, and on one hand, it can be a very liberating experience, I think, for me, at least to like, learn my own history and find the pieces of my history that I was not given. But on the other hand, I wouldn't necessarily need that level of liberation. If I was given my own history in the schools that I was raised in. 

Zoe: There was one class that I took where we got to read over Abraham Lincoln's letters to Joshua's speed, which if you didn't know, Abraham Lincoln, definitely not straight a lot. They will still argue that.

Bethany: The only one

London: Oh, literally nobody Sri.

Zoe:Yeah, but anyways, so my professor had found these documents from like a friend of hers and photocopied them. And literally they weren't to be passed out to anyone. Like we had to like to access them through this very secure server because we were the only people that had access to these letters to read over them. And the letters were literally just like Abraham Lincoln professing his deep, profound love for Joshua speed. And it's like, what does that say when you know, only a very select few people can access this is education. And then you know, what does it say for like, you know, sharing this education, because it's like, I don't think this education just benefits people who can access the education, I think a lot of people would benefit from this education. And I think that's one thing that like, just makes me f@#!$ sick.

Jackson:And then you think about like, the accessibility of that, well, if I have to pay if I have to be able to afford to go to an institution just to learn my own history, but that history is a history of a displaced people who are systematically oppressed by and financially, then their whole path to their own education is completely skewed. Does that make sense?

Bethany:It's like, it's like your whole existence is like niche, then, you know, literally, do we should be talking about queer education, like straight into kindergarten, like, obviously, I'm not going to be like, hello, kindergarten class, let me give you the history of the Stonewall riots. There is an age appropriate curriculum to be had and Career Education at that age. And it should be starting then, even if it's just as simple as, Yes, boys and boys get married, girls and girls get married, sometimes they're not boys or girls, and they get married. You know, like, just understanding it all is like nuance. Like, I know, like, my daughter, for example, is four years old, she has not been to preschool because COVID Shit. So like, she doesn't even have that outside influence like from the media. And she already is, so like, boys can do this. And girls can do that. And boys and girls get married and blah, blah, blah, blah. And I know for sure it's function is to get any of that shit. So it's just like it starts, the queer education should start so young, because the indoctrination into just this heteronormative society starts like right away,

London:  If they're not too young to like that heteronormative narrative, that they're not too young for any other narrative of any other families, or, you know, examples of, you know, just queerness that just separate from, you know, the general idea we already have. So.

Zoe:There's so many barriers to these spaces. And you think it's fucking stupid. I think it's one of the most ridiculous things that we have ever fucking conjured up to decide that, like, certain education is only accessible to certain people. And like, if you want that education, you have to go out and seek it yourself. And like, like, you will never, ever, ever learn about anything otherwise.

Bethany: So like, I know, we managed to get a good chunk of the way into the episode before one of us had to say it. But the problem is capitalism, right? I know. I know. I feel like that was a record for how far we made it into an episode before and of us had to say that my problem is capitalism, because education is, education is wonderful. I know, we're talking shit on the educational systems that we have. Education in and of itself is an amazing thing. The education systems aren't designed to educate. They're designed to keep people from being educated. I mean, maybe not entirely like, but as much as they are designed to educate, just like every way that those institutions are formatted, or to keep people from getting educated to keep people down. So the rich man stays rich, and the poor man stays poor. Since it's such.

London: A space, that's more generally that's like the majority, it's just sis het white, those spaces can be difficult for people of color come into, specifically black people, and just, you know, want to engage in these spaces in the same way you could, if you were comfortable, if you were, weren't always, you know, facing, you know, other challenges just being in these spaces that you know, are oftentimes majority white unless you go to, you know, an HBCU and this is talking, you know, about college and specifically, but that's also something that, that can keep people from not just education, but specifically queer education, and learning about that part of history. You know, we obviously discussed how queer history is just something among many other things missing from like, our lower level, you know, educational spaces, meaning like middle elementary school, you know, and I think back even to high school, how me personally, I didn't have like a lot of formal queer history, and, you know, outside of like my own education, my own research, my own work, I've never really had formal queer education. And I feel like in times when I was struggling, like with my own sexuality, and when it comes to that, I feel like queer kids are really left out. cuz they have no space, like within the school system to like, kind of explore, like, you know, we talk about how you have your, you know, typical sex ed class, you know what's missing from a lot of that is queer education on top of like educational systems fail in that aspect in general. So in a lot of ways, not to shit on our American educational system, but it shipped, if I would have maybe had that experience who might have helped me a little bit when I was like, an adolescent and going through my whole thing with like, my sexuality and figuring out who I was, I didn't have this, like deep education, I never heard or saw any, like, historical gay figures. So you wouldn't know that, like, this is normal. This is a thing you know.

Bethany: I know, it's super important to see yourself, it's super important to see yourself like in the media, and it's hard to see yourself in history. But I think it's also really important, we need to point out how important it is to see people that aren't like you. And we let all those little straight kids in school think that they're the right way to be. And we only just talk about straight people in history. So it's like, oh, gay people don't really exist, oh, gay people grow out of it. Oh, gay people are just like trends. And I think when you leave them out of history, you really leave straight people thinking that being queer is abnormal, when being queer has always been a part of human history.

Jackson:But I'm so glad you said that it's and to go off of that kind of, I think that another part of this discussion about visibility in our education is like, I think that straight people not having asked them also not having the access to education, that that queer people don't have it in a way, like you said, I think contributes to the alienation. And I think because of that, that can, you know, might be a factor that contributes to this idea that like, someone is different than me, they are they are in others and this idea that like they have not played a pivotal role in a history that I'm benefiting from. But that's not true, right? So like when we find out about these queer people that have existed, and like the history of our government, like and relate directly to like, political decisions and political action, but we don't learn about them. So what that saying is, it's saying that queer people have not played a pivotal role in the history of this country, which is just not the case. It's just not true.

London:Also like to say that the straight heteronormative you know, curriculum or way of thinking that we have like, instated in like schools and school systems. It's just like, very disrespectful to the queer community to say that, like, these people who did these amazing things, who were also queer, that's part of their identity. It's like, oh, they know they were straight. And it's like, why are you giving that credit? Destroy people? Anyways?

Bethany: I mean, obviously, if we're figureheads, we did something great and impactful in history. Like that's something that should be acknowledged, but also think there's something to be said about queer history that didn't have big impacts. Maybe it wasn't queer people who were making art or inventing things, but it's like, what was queer existence like in these places? Like what? Like us, we need to learn about how these people are not only a part of our communities now, but they've always been a part of our communities, and to suddenly act like they're others and not like our neighbors is not only strange, but inaccurate. I agree. Yeah, totally. And honestly, a lot of it, I think, contributes to conflict within the queer community itself.

Jackson: 1,000% 1,000%

Bethany: Because like, how much infighting do we have? Like, oh, asexual people aren't really queer. Oh, bisexual people are transphobic Oh, pansexual. People just want attention. Oh, demisexual people are just picky. Like, you know, shit like that. It's like, there has always been this nuance in this variation to gender and sexuality. And I think that real queer education should discuss how individual labels are for how you want to talk about yourself and how you want to explain yourself to people, versus trying to cut out divisions in the community, because it's kind of counterproductive.

Jackson:It is. And I think especially there is an insane amount of transphobia within the queer community. And I think that even when we do discuss your history, we constantly leave out trans women. Marsha, if I don't, Marcia and Sylvia are not always mentioned. And when they are, it's not always together. And when they are mentioned, it's not in depth, and like, we need to understand that people like them and people that they ran with, like played such a major role, because trans people have always existed outside of the scope of anything close to what gay men were trying to achieve, like what like we talked about, like the Manichean society earlier, the Management Society society burned and failed because it was so assimilationist that its own members ran out. Its founders like, like the members themselves were got to a point where they were like, no, like, we want to prove that like we're kind of good behaved, nice little citizens and we want to march around in suits and dress shoes and respectfully protest You know, and Harry hay who was the, you know, the founder of machine, he was like, That's not at all what we should be doing. We should be out screaming and fighting and yelling and, and being as radical and insane as possible because that we're not here to assimilate to straight life. We're here to say we're here, period deal with it.

Bethany: To all queer people who feel like pretending to be straight, or pretending to be quote unquote, normal and not being flamboyant. When you try to sit there and make straight people happy. You're not actually winning. So you're like, Oh, I'm a straight passing gay man. Oh, but I'm better than that. flamboyant gay man, obviously. Okay, yeah, so the homophobic guy tells you that the flamboyant gay man's the problem, but he's not. Because as soon as he's out of the way, who do you think the new target is? Right? They're not happy until gay people or it is just for that metaphor, but like queer people in general, they're not happy until everyone is gone. They don't care how much you conform until you conform to being straight.

Jackson: Within the queer community, we are dealing with so much internal homophobia and the hatred of other feminine queer people or or the phobia of trans people that who, who we should be working to liberate just as much if not more as we are ourselves and the importance of intersectionality there is endless anyway, so moving into that important moments of queer history. I mean, I again, like we've talked kind of this whole time about us having a collective lack of access to glory history, but Do any of you have some moments or some figures in great history that you think are just you you love or like you would like to discuss or talk about?

Bethany:Let's talk about Sappho? Okay, let's do it. Oh, my God. Let's talk about Sappho. So that was one of our trivia questions where the answer was Sappho. So Sappho was considered like one of the OG lesbians. Yeah, because she has ancient writings of love poems to other women. Now, it's actually a debate as to whether or not Safa was a lesbian or bisexual because she was married to a man. But supposedly, in most of her writings, his name translates into like a dick joke, so they don't actually know if he was real.

Zoe:They did build those back then too. So like, Safa could have just been strapped the whole time. Oh, no, no, no, she

Bethany:. Oh, no, no, no, she like was like fucking bitches left and right, don't get me.

Jackson: Noted. Fun fact, we were talking about madness. She inspired it. And I also mentioned the daughters of the ladies, which was a group founded in like 1954. And it was the first ever gay rights activist group for lesbians. It was run by women and my group queer women by women of color. And they they kind of were among the first to discover the power of intersectionality and liberation and the name daughters abilities, or boletus. Basically, there was a French poet named Pierre, something I cannot pronounce, and he had a work or a book called The songs, abilities, and at 94. And in this poem in this work, he used Sappho as a character. And in this story, Sappho lived on the Isle of Lesbos with another character named Billy T's. And it was meant to invoke association with other American social associations, such as the Daughters of the American Revolution. So it kind of sounded like an American activist group, but it was discreet. It wasn't like outwardly we are lesbians, you would really only understand the reference if you had read this poem.

Bethany: Well, and if you'll notice she was from the island of Lesbos to where another word came from thanks Sappho for dropping names for us. Right? An important thing I wanted to mention was that apparently a great deal of Sophos poems were burned by the Roman Catholic Church by Pope Gregory. Honestly, the seventh is Vi I don't remember. And she was referred to as a sex crazed whore who seems of her own wantonness.

Zoe: I like it, I'm gonna start calling.

Bethany:I'm gonna get that tattooed on me.

Jackson: What about you, have you got any career history moments?

Zoe: One of my favorites is it's Sylvia Rivera, when she gets on stage, she like fought her way on stage to pretty much call out every single fucking person at this pride parade. And there's so much just like a motion in it. The whole crowd was booing her and she was like, Listen, I've been doing this shit for longer than you have and like you have consistently forgotten about your trans brothers and sisters. You need to pay attention to us we are doing your work and I don't know she just touches on so many points that are like even just still so fucking relevant. Today. That's my favorite.

Jackson: Add on to that speech called the y'all better quiet down. I remember watching for the first time and just bursting into tears. It is a very powerful, powerful moment. And it was at a gay pride rally in New York in 1973. Which was, I guess, like, the third year that they were doing Pride marches. Yeah, but yes, it's an amazing, amazing speech that she delivered. And it was, it's very powerful to watch for sure.

Zoe: Yeah. And it's only like a couple of minutes long. So even if you have a couple moments, like, sit down and watch that shit with your whole fucking heart, like, don't play that shit in the background, like, sit down and give it your full attention because it is still very, very, very relevant to today. And especially like all the things that we've been talking about, and like, what that means for people and like, very interesting, super relevant. I didn't get to see it. Like, I didn't learn about it until my last year of school, which is wild to me. But yeah, I think it's something that like everything, or everyone would benefit from and like is very, very, very important in terms of just queer history as, as it all we're still seeing, like, I mean, think of like braids and stuff like that, too. And like how, you know, spaces within queer communities. Communities are very, very varied. 

Jackson:Yeah and just to expand on that, I'm going to plug a book real quick because I love it when we talk about things like Stonewall and the major players there. Zoe, I think you've read this book, The Stonewall reader. Yes. Okay. I cannot recommend this book enough. I read it so fast. It was insane. And it is chapter by chapter. It's split up into before, during and after Stonewall. And it's got writings from authors like Audra Laura del Martin, Virginia Prince, Barbara Giddings. It's got interviews with Sylvia Rivera and Marsha P. Johnson. People like Harry, hey, Harry bras, the list goes on and on. It's a beautiful, beautiful read. That gives you a really, really good understanding of queer life before, during and after Stonewall. I think it's pivotal to understanding the kind of path that gay liberation took in America. So I recommend that to everyone. 

Zoe: I also recommend it, it's also a really good one if you're like, just kind of getting started learning about queer history. Yes. Like, it's a great introduction. Yeah. Because you can kind of go through the list and like, you know, if there's a writer that speaks to you, then you can like, do a little bit more. And I like to go a little bit here I have.

Jackson: I have a question moment that I think I would like to share, because I find it to be insane. I'm currently reading a book called The deviants war by Eric Savini, who is now one of my favorite authors ever. So it's a new book, and everybody should go read this as soon as possible. But it kind of follows the political history of gay rights versus the social history of gay rights, if that makes sense. And towards the beginning of the book, it talks about this person named Colonel Alfred Reto, who wasn't an Austrian government official. He was in the Army during World War One. And basically Long story short, he was in a position in the Austrian Empire of the most secrecy, he had the most access to every Austrian secret and government, secret war secret everything. And he made so much money by selling these secrets to the Italian military. He was a secret espionage spy, right. And it was kind of an open secret that he was gay and had several lovers and, and men that he was with, and he was basically their sugar daddy, he would spend all of his insane coin on them. And it was he just funded their lives, basically. But when the Austrian government kind of caught on to the fact that he was selling their secrets to the Italian military, and confronted him, he did end up taking his life, which is tragic. But then news about this whole situation leaked. And the Austrian government used his homosexuality as a scapegoat to excuse the 1.3 million deaths in the first year of the war. This book says, They blamed a rebel and a larger, more insidious homosexual organization. And I read that and I was just like, holy shit. That's crazy. You want me to tell me you sat me through class after class talking about World War One World War One. And you didn't tell me that the Austrian Empire used a gay spy as a scapegoat for over a million deaths. Like that is insane to me. And that is the moment that I wanted to share today.

Bethany: Um, and then, you know, not history, but let's see, you know, A modern gay icon. I want to talk a little about Nas. Yes.

London: Okay, I don't know why I was like Bethany's probably gonna bring him up. Ever since she said that thing about him. It was like Bethany's gonna bring him up.

Jackson: Talking about police love of my life.

Zoe: Bethany, I knew too. That's why I didn't bring them up.

Bethany: You know I'm an app predictable. I mean, he might have been in my top five for Spotify, but you know what else? Ah

Jackson:. That's so funny. 

London: He's so good. 

Jackson:He's gorgeous. I'm sorry, but he's beautiful. And I love him.

London: He is so beautiful.

Bethany: You know, he's got a nice body, but I look at his face and he looks like a child.

London:Does he have a baby face?

Jackson:I mean he's like 21 I mean,I don't know. He's only like 22.

London: Yeah, he's technically a baby. Yo, cuz he's not at.

Bethany: I guess I'm old.

Jackson: You're not old. 

Bethany: Anyway. So little NAS let's talk about him. So not historical, and you're gonna have your own opinions. 

London: Did you say he is not historical?

Zoe: I feel like yeah, he's making history. So it's historical. He's historical.

Bethany: He's now an icon. He's a figure.

Zoe: He has created history.

Bethany: He's hanging out somewhere right now. Like probably like fucking eating ramen or some shit. Okay. He's not historical, if he's like doing something right now, but I wanted to talk about the art of that song Montero, you know, it was really interesting because it pissed off so many people, especially like religious folks, when it was so funny because it's like, they say, Okay, people are going to hell gate. People are going to hell over and over and over again. And then Nas was like, Okay, I'm going to hell that and everyone lost their shit. I'm like, what did he do besides do what you said he was going to do? And then the whole garden of Eden saying what the whole? Like, are you guys over here? One of those fuckers say, like, oh, it's Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. It was art. I feel like if this had come out at any other time as like a painting or something, you'd have to like, sit down and watch it in classes and like, discuss it.

London: Oh, yeah. The artistry is really beautiful in that

Jackson: I think it will be studied in schools when we're older I do think that.

Bethany: Okay, you know what, actually, I'm gonna go for another one for a little Nas. Let's talk about industry, baby. So good. Amazing. Which is another one which is super, super heavy on the queer allegory, not even allegory. It's right in front of your face. But like on the queer messaging Yeah. And I think it's so funny too, because it really takes that like, oh, that like don't drop the soap messaging to later they're literally all naked dancing in the shower together. And I just thought it was such a really interesting use of like, the prison imagery and the message of homosexuality I don't.

London: know if there's even so much to be said about how it's being responded to in this day and age of like, people being so angry, especially like with the using the religious commentary going back to that. It's like, like you said, Bethany, he did what everybody said he liked, what's going to happen, but it's like, it's something that Ken has been used in art, and for years and years and years, and it's like, it's being used in this way. And it's literally depicting what you said was gonna happen. So I felt like the anger behind it is just so funny. And ironic.

Bethany: Y'all are the ones who brought the queer community into your religious bullshit, okay? Don't be mad when suddenly we're using your religious bullshit. It's like, we didn't bring ourselves to this party, the queer community did not want to be cast into hell by all you homophobic, fucks, you know, like, you dragged us into this, like it's ours now.

Jackson: I also think that Nas is challenging the music industry in the same way that like black women are having to deal with the double standard around their content. You know, what I'm saying about the sexualization of their music and how everybody's always told up in arms, and Cardi B drops a new song, but we've been letting male rappers and male artists do the same shit for decades. And the way that Nas is going about expressing his queerness is very similar, if not the same way, as many hetero artists go about expressing their sexuality. And I think that he's challenging that double standard a lot because you see how angry people are getting over him just being naked on the cover of an album. We've got people that are out here with tits out on their cover. And all the straight men are like, Yes, we love it. And then not as there's one thing where he's kissing a guy and suddenly like the world is ending.

Bethany: Oh, yeah, like lesbians are sexy, but gay men are gross. Yeah, lesbians are fetish. Yeah, it's like being gay is gross until it's your porn.

Jackson: I mean that Yeah, right. Like we fetishize queer women so much. And at the same time, we're like, you shouldn't be allowed to get married.

Bethany: Or like trans women even, like, let's talk about like, we talked about trans women being like trashy about trans women being like, secretly men trying to break into spaces but it's like then on the other hand, how many fucking porn videos are specifically about sexualizing transgender? like that. That obviously has a fucking audience. Yeah, totally sexualized.

Zoe: But like we can't comprehend anything else. 

Jackson:​​Well, and I do think there's something to be said for the way that straight men fetishize gay women, but at the same time, part of me is like, are you watching lesbian porn because you are uncomfortable seeing another guy naked because of your own internal homophobia. And the gag with that is to me is that if that is the case, then it's ironic because by avoiding male queerness, you are directly exposing yourself to female queerness in both a fetishization way and an escapist way. Does that make sense? Why even

Zoe: Why even think of like, like, between, you know, Madonna kissing whoever the fuck onstage NAS doing what he's doing. And then people are like, Oh, my God, this is the end. This is it. Like, we're all gonna die.

London: The thing. I feel like when it comes to little Nas x's, he's not only facing the hate from these, like, majority like from like Christians or like anybody else. It's also like, he's getting hate from his own community from the black community. And it's like, a lot of, it's just like, a lot of it is like, deep rooted misogyny. And it's just horrible to see.

Bethany: But you know, and I imagine he gets it from the gay community too, because let's be honest, like, yeah, the black community is not known for being super open to homosexuality. But the gay community is not known for being anti racist. Exactly. Either. The gay community is very racist, as well. So it's like he gets it from both sides that way.But on another hand, I kind of feel like he makes an interesting public figure, like, like Dave Chappelle recently made a joke about how acting like being gay was a white people thing. So he can make jokes about gay people. But he was like, No, I was making jokes about white people like he couldn't comprehend that. There were gay black people in his community. And so I think NAS really makes an interesting statement where like, look, there's black gay people, like not all black people are homophobic, and not all queer people are going to be racist. It's like we can be both

London: To what Bethany said about even Dave Chappelle, he had a whole scandal where he said something transphobic and like one of his comedy shows and like thinking back to that he had an instance where after that was like, released, and he went through this whole scandal, he went to a high school, and people were like, calling him out on it. And he was trying to ignore the fact that he was completely being transphobic and trying to defend himself. And it's like, no, you can't defend yourself. Because when you are, when you are producing media that is going to be widely received. And you are making these jokes. And you know, that people when they're at the expense of another community that you are not a part of, you know, that you're like reading this. I don't want to say you're spreading cave, but like this, this dangerous narrative.

Jackson: I'd say, yeah, for sure. Um, I was just going to add on to what Bethany said, as well, like, on the topic of white queerness, I think to like white queerness is so trendy, yes, in ways that black queerness has never been but white queerness appropriates black culture constantly. And you know, like talking about like, like, wanting the culture, but not the people like boom, major, major, major.

Bethany: Do you guys remember this trend with white gay men where they used to be like, Yeah, well, I'm a black woman in the end. Yes. I remember that.

Jackson: I remember growing up and everyone always said that.

London: I've had someone say that to me. And I'm like, Are you though? Are you though?

Jackson: I remember growing up I heard that all the time that every gay man has a sassy. It's horrible. But even like the appropriation of AAVE and having just fashion in general and just aspects of culture that seems to only appeal to the masses when it's done by white people.

London: Yeah, I feel like white, like white queer spaces are interesting, because it's like, that's what's okay. It's like the okay version of being queer. Oftentimes, it's like when you have, you know, your gay best friends. And, you know, I don't know if you guys have ever seen the movie G.B.F. It's amazing, but it's horrible. Like, in so many ways, but that's like a perfect that will be like the perfect example of like, what is expected, like the whole conversation about what is expected of like, a queer, gay man, queer, gay man, a gay man, a sis gay man, but like, specifically assists white gay man. And that's like, it talks. It kind of talks about, like, the perfect package that everybody wants. And I feel like that's what a lot of people see. And I feel like that's, like, kind of that can kind of become the face of the queer movement, quote, unquote, sometimes and it's like, but who's really done the work? You know? Clearly queer history. Queer education is something that we all need. And it's very important for a magnitude of different reasons that representation is so necessary so we can see people both like us and people who aren't like us. Yeah, so everyone, I would encourage everyone to just do their research. Take time to really learn your queer history if you have access to the resources, and just learn a little bit more about the people who have just made strides and like different communities, especially in the queer community, especially queer people who've made strides in different communities.

Zoe:That is all the time we have for this amazing episode. I hope you have a lot to think about. I hope this sticks in your mind and we will see you next time. Thanks for listening. Bye!. 

Jackson: Bye!

London: Bye!

Bethany: Bye!